Wife should walk 10 steps behind her husband
Date : 09-Nov-92 21:15
From : Sean Mccullough
To : All
Subject : Messages From E_Values
Dear HOLYSMOKErs:
The next two messages from me were exported from the EggNet E_VALUES
Conference. (As the addressee, I have the right to cross-post them.) These
messages are so sexist and fascistic that they are in clear violation of
the policy of the Conference in which they were originally posted; hence, I
refused to answer them there. Such traffic, however, is permitted here; and
hence, I forward this excellent example of American Christian Conservatism
to my fellow HOLYSMOKE Conferees for their entertainment, conversation, and
other legitimate Echo Conference uses.
Please feel free to answer Martinez in any way you see fit. Please
address all replies to the next two messages to: RICHARD MARTINEZ, as he is
their author. I merely forwarded the messages to you here on HOLYSMOKE.
Ad Majorem Capris Stellarum Gloriam,
Sean
p.s. "AD MAJOREM CAPRIS STELLARUM GLORIAM" means "TO THE GREATER GLORY OF
THE STARS' GOAT", or "Greater Glory to the Star Goat!"
... OFFLINE 1.42 * High explosives applicable if truth and logic fail.
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Message #6479 - HolySmoke
Date : 09-Nov-92 21:18
From : Richard Martinez
To : All
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : -> #6481
Area: E_VALUES
Msg: #7644
Date: 11-08-92 23:39 (Public)
From: RICHARD MARTINEZ
To: SEAN MCCULLOUGH
Subject: Ordination Of Women
_______________________________________________________________________________
[SM> marks lines quoting Sean McCullough]
SM> "inherently good" MUST equal
SM> "constantly perfect and without error". This is an
SM> idea which comes from
I disagree, if a child is allowed to do as he pleases he will grow to be
spoiled and not know right from wrong. If a man was allowed, when he became
angry he would kill, destroy, injure, ect.
It is moral standards that keep the average person in line to what is
"socially acceptable" not an "inherent good".
Most people do what comes easy, and do not like change. If it were not for
laws and moral values these "inherently good" people would turn on you. (They
still do it today, wars, oppresion, racism, ect)
SM> committing atrocities, does NOT
SM> make all humans inherently depraved or evil, the
That depends on your definition of "evil". You have your own definition of
"good" why not make one up for evil.
SM> I also caution you about using such remarks as your
SM> "taking advantage of
SM> people/women" above. This implies that women are
SM> somehow less than, weaker
SM> than, or otherwise subordinate to men. Any sentient
They are.
Why are mens athletic competitions, seperate from womens. It is because they
in general can't compete with men. Why isn't there a woman who is as smart as
Einstein. They are the weaker gender. They do how ever have the ability to
have children which men do not have.
You hear alot about women getting raped but not to many men. Is that because
they do not have the strength to defend themselves, I think so.
To say a woman is equal to a man is foolish. They are that way by
design.(there are exceptions).
SM> falsehood. In addition,
SM> it will draw the wrath of our Moderator, who is a woman!
This is a religious type discussion area. Many religions believe that woman
is inferior and "should walk 10 steps behind her husband" and "should not
show her face in public" and "should not speak unless spoken to" and should
not speak in church.
These people who have these religions are both "sentient" and "intelligent".
Your religion says different so you put their's down then you say I put your
religion down for not being Christian. Do I note hypocrocy here?
If the moderator is a woman then she knows who the weaker gender is and if
she doesn't then I will arm wrestle her to "enlighten" her position
on this subject.
... OFFLINE 1.42 * A freely available QWK reader!
---
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SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943
Message #6480 - HolySmoke
Date : 09-Nov-92 21:23
From : Richard Martinez
To : All
Subject : E_Values Message /2
Area: E_VALUES
Msg: #7645
Date: 11-09-92 00:21 (Public)
From: RICHARD MARTINEZ
To: SEAN MCCULLOUGH
Subject: Is there anybody OUT ther
_______________________________________________________________________________
SM> well, is there??
SM> Colorado Springs, CO, needn't answer. I *know* YOU are out there!
You know I am out here learning more about your Godless religions. I ahv I
have been reading some of your Godless garbage and insane insights and
your powerless idealism and even some of your so called values.
It is interesting to see people putting so much effort into religions that
will send them to hell. (At least according to Jesus and Paul)
What a waste.
You may think you see the light but you need to take the flashlight out of
your face and take a good look at reality. Don't take my word for it, look in
the true Bible or pray to Jesus, He will tell you what reality is.
... OFFLINE 1.42 * A freely available QWK reader!
---
* Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943
Message #6481 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 11:52
From : Sean Mccullough
To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6479 <--> #6482
Richard --
On 11-09-92 RICHARD MARTINEZ wrote to ALL...
RM> SM> "inherently good" MUST equal
RM> SM> "constantly perfect and without error". This is an
RM> SM> idea which comes from
RM>
RM> I disagree, if a child is allowed to do as he pleases he will grow to
RM> be spoiled and not know right from wrong.
Sorry, but you're not going to find any support for that old saw "spare the
rod and spoil the child" from me. This typically Puritan dictum has
resulted in the creation of far more mass-murderers, rapists, common
thieves, and many other heinous and violent criminals than the more modern
and enlightened idea that children should be allowed to express themselves
relatively freely, only being submitted to such discipline as is necessary
to prevent them from performing any actual harm. In fact, the Native
American tribes even allow children a large degree of latitude here; they
KNOW that a child, once having burned him/herself at the fire, will more
reliably avoid it than if the parents waste their time trying to tell that
to the child.
All that the "spare the rod, spoil the child" tenet has EVER done is to
teach children that it is perfectly acceptable to hurl violence at anyone
smaller or weaker than yourself. If this is what your Jesus teaches, then
the Romans were correct -- the greater good of all humanity requires that
the Jesus cult be eliminated from the Planet, and its proto-religions
carefully restricted to the barren deserts from which they sprang.
RM> If a man was allowed, when he became angry he would kill, destroy,
RM> injure, ect.
RM> It is moral standards that keep the average person in line to what is
RM> "socially acceptable" not an "inherent good".
Again, factually wrong. CHRISTIANITY, in all of its various guises, has
been responsible for more killing, destruction, injury, rape, pillage, and
pestilential diseases than any other source in the past 2000 years. No, the
ONLY reason that the human race hasn't been completely killed off by now is
that *certain* humans, following their *inherently good* natures,
*resisted* the massive human sacrifices demanded by the Christian
mass-murderers (euphemistically called "Kings of Christendom") and placed
the promptings of their own consciences over and above State obedience and
some obsolete little book of Semitic fables. Without the social
contributions of such Atheists, Agnostics, and Pagans -- the European
Enlightenment -- we Westerners would still be hopelessly trapped in the
Christianity-caused DARK AGES, against which the Enlightenment was a
REVOLT. And, fortunately for thinking people everywhere, that revolt was
SUCCESSFUL in the extreme -- whether the Stone Age throwbacks known as
"Puritan Fundamentalist Christians" wanted it that way or not. Modern
European cultures were intelligent enough to EMPOWER the Enlightenment and
REJECT the Puritans. The only mistake they made was a mistake of mercy --
the European governments, trying to act enlightened, sentenced the Puritans
to TRANSPORTATION out of Europe to the overseas Colonies. They SHOULD have
sentenced them to EXECUTION, eliminating the Puritanical garbage from the
Planet, as the Planet and its peoples require.
<>
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Resist much; obey NOT!
---
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Message #6482 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 12:15
From : Sean Mccullough
To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6481 <--> #6483
<>
Now, fortunately for the poor benighted Fundamentalists, the Enlightenment
has triumphed in another way. Here in the United States, under a Bill of
Rights ENTIRELY derived from ENLIGHTENMENT principles (NOT Christian ones,
your historically false mythologies notwithstanding!), Puritans are free to
detect the hopeless FALSEHOODS that they are, for some bizarre reason,
believing, and CHANGE their beliefs to a more Enlightened, empirically
correct, and REASONABLE set of beliefs. Hence, the EXECUTIONS that would
have been required in older times to rid the human race of this
pestilential religious belief are, mercifully, no longer needed. But if you
Puritans get your dearest, frequently expressed wish -- the elimination of
the First Amendment and establishment of the Puritan Religion as the only
permitted religion in the United States -- then this will no longer be
true, and the only way left to eliminate the Puritanical mental DISEASE
from the Planet will be to KILL ALL OF YOU. Please do NOT make this
necessary; support the First Amendment and ALL of its powers and
consequences.
RM> (They still do it today, wars, oppresion, racism, ect)
Again, nearly ALL of those evils, in the past 2000 years, have been
inflicted by CHRISTIANS and CHRISTIAN governments on an extremely
victimized Planet. And how about the gross, disgistine evils you haven't
mentioned, such as SEXISM (the false idea that men are overlords over
women) or HETEROSEXISM (the false idea that reproductive sexuality is
superior to non-reproductive sexual expressions)?? I'll deal with THESE
below, where you have obligingly advocated these grievous social wrongs!
RM> SM> I also caution you about using such remarks as your
RM> SM> "taking advantage of
RM> SM> people/women" above. This implies that women are
RM> SM> somehow less than, weaker
RM> SM> than, or otherwise subordinate to men. Any sentient
RM>
RM> They are.
HOGWASH. Outright and complete falsehood. And a set of LIES designed to
justify the Puritan doctrine that women are to be the property of men all
their lives, according to the Puritan proverb: "A woman is NEVER to have
her own will"!! How Neanderthalic! How long have you been out of your cave,
anyway Richard?
RM> Why are mens athletic competitions, seperate from womens. It is
RM> because they in general can't compete with men.
Again, pure LIES. In fact, many sports are now either totally or partially
gender-integrated; tennis is almost totally so, and the aquatic sports are
rapidly integrating. In fact, you have the cause-effect relationship
totally reversed. Sports aren't segregated because women are weaker than
men; they're segregated to continue support of the LIE that they are,
because Puritan Christians are AFRAID that the men will be shown to be
equal AT BEST. Rather than face that, the Christians and their controlled
governments have resisted integration of any and all sports that could show
this FACT to be true -- the equality of women -- and carefully kept women
out of all others. Remember Billy Jean King's tennis victory over some
sexist asshole? THAT is typical of athletic competition between men and
women, NOT the inequality that your false MYTHS teach.
<>
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Long Live the Great Beast 666!
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Message #6483 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 12:48
From : Sean Mccullough
To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6482 <--> #6484
<>
RM> Why isn't there a woman who is as smart as Einstein.
Again, an OUTRIGHT LIE. Einstein HIMSELF gratefully acknowledged the
contributions of numerous scientific women, especially Marie Curie whose
experimentation with nuclear radiation was a major part of the inspiration
for the General Theory of Relativity. As Einstein lived during a
considerable part of Madame Curie's later life, I daresay he was a far
better judge of her intellectual and scientific acumen than any member of a
generation below his, including ours. And HIS testimony says that you are
full of caca!
RM> They are the weaker gender.
I believe that I have destroyed all the pillar arguments you have
marshalled for this piece of Puritanical hogwash. Every one of them I have
reliably shown to be a LIE and an outright MALICIOUS FALSEHOOD. Every one
of them! Hence, I can say with greatest confidence that THIS statement is a
malicious lie also, based on your internal desire to reduce women to the
status of agricultural brood mares, always the property of someone else. I
wonder if your woman-hating, misogynistical attitude derives from the fact
that YOU can't get some woman to be YOUR wholly-owned breeder slave! It
really DOES sound like you aren't getting laid, that's for DAMN sure!
RM> You hear alot about women getting raped but not to many men. Is that
RM> because they do not have the strength to defend themselves, I think so.
More lies, Richard? The main reason you don't hear of many men being raped
isn't that it doesn't happen -- it DOES -- but that men, too macho to admit
that they were violated (usually by their good Christian parents, too!)
DON'T report it. BOYS are the children whose parents are more likely to be
raped with impunity by these parents, as GIRLS are more easily inspected
for damage from rape -- and more readily BELIEVED when they report it,
because of such false beliefs that you spout off here. But this, too, is
changing; and more and more incest perpetrators are receiving at least SOME
punishment for their crimes. Once we adopt a standard of COMPULSORY
EXECUTION for parent rapists, it will end. But your impotent Jesus cult has
aided and abetted such rape, not impeded it in any way.
<>
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Puritanism: CHOSEN Mental Illness of Imbeciles!
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Message #6484 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 13:07
From : Sean Mccullough
To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6483 <--> #6485
<>
RM> To say a woman is equal to a man is foolish. They are that way by
RM> design.(there are exceptions).
Again, lies! To give women social equality to men is CORRECT, RIGHT, JUST,
and PROPER -- whether the Semites' tribal thunder-demon likes it or not!
RM> SM> falsehood. In addition,
RM> SM> it will draw the wrath of our Moderator, who is a woman!
RM>
RM> This is a religious type discussion area. Many religions believe that
RM> woman
RM> is inferior and "should walk 10 steps behind her husband" and "should
RM> not show her face in public" and "should not speak unless spoken to" and
RM> should not speak in church.
RM> These people who have these religions are both "sentient" and
RM> "intelligent".
Again, false. The peoples holding these SEXIST, BARBARIC ideas are
simply unwilling to THINK rather than BELIEVE -- much like yourself, I
daresay! People who ARE sentient and intelligent REJECT such ideas as the
submission of women to men! Even in the Muslim nations, whose bitter
suppression of female independence and sovereignty is legendary, these
ideas are being REJECTED by thinking people. As soon as your Mullah cousins
are disempowered in Iran, these religious-based ideas will be hopelessly
extinct. Even now, in the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians treated their women
as you recommend above; the Iraqis, on the other hand, treated them
equally and even placed them in combat roles. IRAQ KICKED IRAN'S ASS in
that War; and, in fact, the only reason Kuwait is still an independent
nation today is that ANOTHER nation where women are mostly equal to men --
the United States -- came in on its side, again with women in military
roles (including the first time that women found themselves in combat). In
fact, the SINGLE national armed forces with the BEST track record against
the blatantly sexist Arab culture is more than HALF FEMALE -- that of
ISRAEL. Golda Meir KNEW what she was doing! Care to take on the Israeli
womens' army corps, Richard? I assure you that YOU WILL LOSE -- even if you
take these women on ONE-ON-ONE! Or, perhaps, would you prefer our own U.S.
Womens' Marines? THAT's a challenge I'd LOVE to witness! Same goes for the
WAC's, the WAVE's, and the WAF's! (My apologies to veterans who can correct
me on the proper labels for the womens' military units in the U.S.; I was
rejected from service at 17 years of age for back trouble and was never
allowed to serve.)
<>
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Jesus saves; Moses invests; the Bhagwan spends, and the
Mongol hordes!
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Message #6485 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 13:28
From : Sean Mccullough
To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6484 <-
<>
RM> Your religion says different so you put their's down then you say I
RM> put your
RM> religion down for not being Christian. Do I note hypocrocy here?
No sir. I put yours/theirs down, not because they are or aren't Christian,
but because they are SEXIST, HETEROSEXIST, RACIST, VIOLENT, BARBARIC, and
UN-ENLIGHTENED. This planet does NOT need any more of such worthless
garbage! Your non-existent Jesus will never return; chances are, he never
lived at all but was a mythical figure made up from other mythical figures
of the times before his alleged time. The WRONGS, VIOLENCE, TYRANNIES,
INJUSTICES, and other UNQUESTIONABLE EVILS due to Christianity in general,
and YOUR sect thereof, Fundamentalist Puritanism SPECIFICALLY, are far
greater than all atrocities due to any other religion, or set of religions,
in all of history. And the ONLY significant competition that the
Puritanical Protestant Christian cult has in this competition of historical
atrocities is the ONLY other major world religion teaching that women are
inferior to men -- ISLAM, whose bloody and atrocious history is as bad as
the Christians', and whose barbaric and blood-stained teachings need to be
removed from the Planet likewise and for the same reasons. Fortunately for
Muslim culture, this sexist barbarity is under SERIOUS attack by Muslim
thinkers, and we may yet see an Islam where reasonably enlightened
attitudes about women prevail. If this happens, Islam will ASSUREDLY
survive Protestant Puritanical Christianity as a major world religion.
No, Richard, I attacked the Fundamentalist Christian (Puritan) religion
because it is a barbaric, primitive, dark-age dangerous cult unworthy of
thinking, civilized human beings. I have reliably demonstrated that many of
its worst tenets are readily visible as outright lies, not using any
religious beliefs of my own at all but readily observable empirical FACTS
which any human can readily obtain by observation in the outside world. In
fact, the only need for reference to books in my arguments has been the
occasional reference to the histories of generations before our own. And
there, I stuck to readily verifiable facts, rather than in any way rely
upon faith, feelings, or books of fairy-tales such as the Bible is. Just
because some ancient Semitic tribes treated women as property DOES NOT mean
that this is the way modern Western cultures ought to conduct themselves.
And ALL you have to support the contrary assertion is a tenuous tissue of
lies, falsehoods, and statements supported solely by blind faith --
something in which thinking humans REFUSE to traffick, EVER.
Now, let us compare how YOU have chosen to treat MY religion. Despite
the fact that you can NOT show ANY history of sexism, racism, warfares,
religious persecutions of other faiths, or any other OBSERVABLE social
evils relating to my Wiccan religion, you INSIST that we worship Satan and
demons (outright LIE); use poisons and drugs as part of our worship (LIE
again!); human sacrifice (BLATANT LIE); and then draw the conclusion from
the "proof" offered by this fabrication of outright falsehoods that we are
Satanists; that we are evil; and that we are in the business of luring
people to your "hell" (whose existence we Wiccans steadfastly DENY). This
has shown us NOTHING about Wicca AT ALL; but it has told us MUCH about YOUR
rather vile, foul, and evil dangerous cult! Your behaviour has told the
rest of the BBSing world that Puritans are willing to LIE, KILL, CHEAT, and
STEAL in order to IMPOSE their religion on those who are unwilling to
accept it.
And, frankly Sir, *I* am UNWILLING to accept such a slimy way of life,
belief, and thought! And ALL truly CIVILIZED and THINKING humans agree with
me here!
--Sean
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Resist much; obey NOT!
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SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943
Message #6486 - HolySmoke
Date : 10-Nov-92 13:43
From : Sean Mccullough
To : All
Subject : Replies To Martinez
Hello fellow HOLYSMOKErs!
Just wanted to address this note to the rest of the Jeezo-grovellers
here on HOLYSMOKE. I do NOT really advocate the elimination of all
Christians from the planet -- at least, not YET. :) All I want the
Christian religious community to do is to treat Fundamentalist
Puritanism as what it IS -- a DEVIANT, DISEASED MUTATION of their Faith.
Just because Puritanism NEEDS to be wiped out -- CURED, if you Will -- does
NOT mean that the remainder of Christianity must needs suffer the same
things! The mainstream of Christendom is the PATIENT, NOT the DISEASE!! :)
Therefore, to the Mainstream Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Eastern
Orthodox Christians on this Echo, my heartfelt apologies. After all, it's
not YOUR fault that the likes of JBS and Richard Martinez claim to be
co-religionists of yours.
When I state to the likes of Martinez that his religion needs to be
eliminated from the Planet, I am referring to the PARASITIC DISEASE which
is the Puritan Cult, and which is sapping the lifeblood out of the true
Christian Religions, and making the mainstream Christians an all-time high
number of enemies in the world.
93 -- Sean
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Exchangers of freedom for safety deserve neither one.
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