Mercurii dies May 21 1997, Dixit Julie Smart ad Steve Quarrella:
JS> Sorry, I'm not quoting, but my quoter isn't working.
JS> It's a pain in the butt for me, too.
It's a pain in the butt for me to keep reminding you of certain facts because you're too lazy to read my message. Look at it from that angle. In any event, my message is ONCE AGAIN included, this time, attached to the bottom of the message.
JS> Actually, Ken is right. Mormons are not Christians.
JS> I was born and raised in the Mormon Church.
So you keep parroting. Ken is wrong, you are wrong. Mormons are Christians. -My wife- was born and raised in the Mormon Church. What part of that do you not understand? I spoke with my father-in-law (a Mormon elder) about this the other night, and he asked me [verbatim] "What ninny told you that Mormons don't believe in the trinity?" <squawk> "Julie want a cracker! Mormons are not Christians! Actually, Ken is correct!"
Now, if you want to get into a pissing match about the nature of the trinity, that's a completely different issue. The original issue was "Mormons aren't Christians because they don't believe in the trinity." I have demonstrated that to be incorrect using Mormon doctrine -and- anecdotal evidence from current members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Why has Ken bravely run away from this discussion? Why was Ken unable to answer basic questions about the LDS church? Why is Ken afraid to pick up a phone to call the local ward so that his questions might be answered?
What I -really- want to know is who is it that comes to you and Jelly and says "I grant you the power to decide who is a Christian and who is not a Christian?" Steve Winter would have us believe that you and Jelly are not True Christians. You and Jelly would have us believe that the Mormons are not True Christians, while the Mormons with whom I've spoken consider you two to be dangerous lunatics. You all have your own chapters and verses that discredit the others while showing that your interpretations of "certain things" are the correct ones. It is sufficient to me (as a non-theist) that someone indicates "I am a Christian" for them to be a Christian. If that doesn't jibe with your cult's interpretation of things, that's really between your particular branches of Christianity. A little ecumenicism might help raise your credibility to non-Christians, especially if that ecumenicism is not geared towards anti-_____ to non-Christians.
JS> Error #2. There are hundreds, but I don't have enough line space.
"There are hundreds of errors in the Bible, but I don't have enough line space."
JS> As for the Trinity, yes, I realize what the Book of
JS> Mormon says, and I realize what the 8 witnesses said,
JS> but it doesn't fly.
It certainly does fly. I detect a trend here: Say something to Ken, he reads it and then discards it. You're doing the same thing.
JS> Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers,
JS> for example. Now, we know that God created Satan
JS> first as an angel. They can't possibly say they believe
JS> that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one when
JS> they are, in essence, saying that God created Jesus-
JS> not that Jesus is actually HIM[sic].
That's really a non-issue. So their take on the trinity is different from that of your cult, so what?
JS> 1. Ken is doing quite well, actually
Ken is doing quite well? He couldn't answer basic questions about the LDS church, choosing instead to go get a friend answer them for him. I'm not terribly impressed, as anybody with a basic familiarity with the LDS church could answer those questions. Hell, I as an atheist know the LDS church's history better than Ken, "a religious man," does.
JS> 3. Comorah is where Joseph Smith supposedly received
JS> his revelations from the Angel Moroni
No, it's "Cumorah," actually.
JS> 5. Just because the side of their church says "The
JS> Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" doesn't
JS> mean they're Christians.
Ken claims that the Mormons are not Christians because they do not believe in the trinity. First of all, I've got a whole family of Mormon in-laws that say "That's nonsense" (A whole family of -elders,- woman, so know your place :). Secondly, I've got Articles of Faith that puts it out in black and white. Thirdly, I'm curious as to why Ken is so afraid to pick up the phone and call the local ward, as they'll answer in the affirmative that they believe in the trinity. Fourthly, I'm curious: Who is it that goes to certain born-again Christians like you and Ken and grants them permission to decide who is and who is not a Christian?
There's a bit of irony in your statement (especially since the word "Christian" isn't found on the sides of -most- churches). It's pretty hard to separate the True Christians from the "False Christians," given that so many Christians, period, are out there pointing fingers at the others and claiming "They're not True Christians." All look at their Bibles or Books of Mormon or whatever and say "Here are chapters and verses that make me a Christian," yet the other group says "Here are chapters and verses that make me a Christian and the other guy not a Christian." Those who holler the loudest about how "Christian" they are seem to be the ones who are the biggest embarrassment to the rest of humanity. Why is that?
JS> the Mormons teach it is by good works that people are saved.
Maybe the Mormons have a good idea there.
JS> I grew up in the Mormon Church and converted out 5
JS> years ago, so I do actually have a working knowledge
JS> of this stuff.
So does my wife, who left the Salt Lake church at age 27 and has been free of their clutches for seven years. Ken Young, on the other hand, has no working knowledge of "this stuff" other than what his masters have spoonfed to him.
JS> I'm looking for the discussion about Mormons & the
JS> Trinity...that should be interesting.
Go re-read (or read) Articles of Faith. In the meantime, I've gone looking for a few ringers of my own. :)
BTW, I'll throw in a cheap shot: Can you disprove the Book of Mormon? :-)